Status update - What to expect, when you are expecting OpenGL ES 2.

moopf

*Removed this post, didn't realise there were troubles in Istanbul at present. Sorry, not the time for this post. Hope everybody is OK*

gianmichele

How are you guys doing over there with all the police problems?

deniz

Hello all,

We are OK. No need to worry. But Atılım and I, both support the protests full time (we are on the streets all the time), so give us a couple of days to be active on the forum (I hope things will be better in a few days). In the mean time, please feel free to discuss anything. We will be back as soon as we can.

Sorry for the inconvenience.
Cheers

gianmichele

Gee guys, please be careful. We're all supporting here as much as we can on twitter.

deniz

Thanks a lot! You can read the news on Quara and Techcrunch too.
http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/01/as-anti-government-protests-erupt-in-istanbul-facebook-and-twitter-appear-suddenly-throttled/
http://www.quora.com/Istanbul/What-is-happening-at-Gezi-Parkı-in-Taksim-Istanbul?srid=Vj&share=1

paul_k_clark

Be careful out there you guys/girls

BlueByLiquid

While I certainly

But Atılım and I, both support the protests full time (we are on the streets all the time), so give us a couple of days to be active on the forum (I hope things will be better in a few days). In the mean time, please feel free to discuss anything. We will be back as soon as we can.

While I completely understand the need to support a cause and I certainly hope you both are safe, this makes me extremely hesitant to ever purchase Gideros as it makes me feel like you are not treating the business seriously. Supporting a protest at all times while you have a business worries me that when a critical fix is needed (or a badly needed new feature, etc) I might be stuck waiting. As I have a business of my own I couldn't do that and keep my customers. Again I fully understand the need to support a cause however I think it is a risk I can't take. Again I really hope you are both safe.

deniz

Hello,

I think it is not a big risk:) This protest is huge and it happens once in every 90 years. You can think of it like occupy Wall Street protests. I am very sorry you feel this way, but I think this is a force major event just like an earthquake.

On the other hand, starting from (last) Monday we are coming back to normal. We try to limit protesting at nights and work during days.

Cheers.

phongtt

Hope everything will be fine soon.

I'm looking forward to 2012.09.11, and then 2013.x.x

Mells

Hi,

apart from what is happening in Turkey (which we all agree is something important)...

I would like to say that from the "outside" Gideros looks like a dead product.

• Latest release as seen in the sticky posts :

  New version: Gideros Studio 2012.09.10

• Latest blog post : blog (woops, no blog)
• Twitter and facebook mainly point to external resources.
• No newsletter
• No official channel to get news and get notified (unless we visit the forum everyday)
• Very few communications between releases (yes the team is focused on making a great product. But I'm pointing a fact)

Insiders probably know that atilim is working on the next release, but outsiders have no idea about it.
Also, even being "inside", I feel that the lack of communication is something that worries me more an more.

I think something should be done about it...

zoolax

Hi
I watch the news and I do understand things are still very hot in Turkey,
I hope the best for all the Turkish people,and I hope you guys will be safe,from what I see this can drag on for a month to up to any time.

As a side note,if finance is the problem,maybe we all can do something for gideros team on kick starter,to gather up some funds.
As I want gideros to overcome its current challenges as quickly as possible .

I do believe Gideros team is extremely talented,and when I came here I felt it is a better product,but as time passes by very fast,day by day other products becoming more advanced. and I can not argue with the real facts.
I hope things start to look more lively around here,as I use to come here every day,now once a week.
|Wish you guys the best.

moopf

Yeah, what @Mells and @zoolax said.

deniz

Hi,

Our first priority is next release. These things you said, are also very important but it is a matter of priorities right now.

Cheers.

Mells

@deniz
You know I support Gideros and have been doing it for months and I'm sorry to ask but... did you miss my point on purpose?
We don't care about a blog, twitter, facebook etc....

No official channel to get news and get notified (unless we visit the forum everyday)
Very few communications between releases (yes the team is focused on making a great product. But I'm pointing a fact)

My guess is that it is not hard at all to create a newsletter and send a short mail once every 15days to share a few images and progress reports.
And a mail for each release, so we don't need to come back here on the forum to check.
Most probably you have the resources to commit to send a short mail every 15days (or monthly) to your users, i think?
Just think that you send a message to a friend who is missing you.
How is it possible that we have to push the idea to a business to keep us in the loop?

It seems that users would be happier with it and it can be done in no time, so i don't see why or how you don't want to do it.
Clearly it wouldn't be a matter of time.

I don't see it as another task on the priority list, it's a must (communicate the value of your product to keep your users engaged and attract new users -> and sell).
If your users leave, it won't matter if you have the best product on the market...

More importantly currently it doesn't look (for outsiders) that you don't have the time, but more like you have nothing to share.
So please prove them/us wrong publicly!
Gideros seems dead, and if it takes several months between releases are we supposed to "shut up and be patient"?

I think Gideros has all interests to communicate more.

So my question is : are you aware that Gideros looks dead to outsiders?
1. If not then... Sorry about that. Are you going to do something about that?
2. If yes, have you evaluated how much it's hurting your brand and business?

I want to support Gideros, but nowadays i hesitate to talk about it to my friends because all they see is the lack of communication from the team, and the name of the latest release.
And i feel uncomfortable with it.

I don't like it, i want to support it fully.

keszegh

You should make a minimal blog/newsletter (it does not need to be fancy-colorful-corona style, see e.g. the phonegap build blog), even the information that ar2rsawseen is working for gideros is just hidden on the forums, or is not? his work on plugins, announcing plugins as beta and then as final would easily fill a monthly newsletter. not that it would disguise our lack of knowledge about the progress of the core of gideros, but it would show that there is progress and people working on making gideros better.

moopf

More importantly currently it doesn't look (for outsiders) that you don't have the time, but more like you have nothing to share.
So please prove them/us wrong publicly!
Gideros seems dead, and if it takes several months between releases are we supposed to "shut up and be patient"?

I think Gideros has all interests to communicate more.

So my question is : are you aware that Gideros looks dead to outsiders?
1. If not then... Sorry about that. Are you going to do something about that?
2. If yes, have you evaluated how much it's hurting your brand and business?

I want to support Gideros, but nowadays i hesitate to talk about it to my friends because all they see is the lack of communication from the team, and the name of the latest release.
And i feel uncomfortable with it.

I don't like it, i want to support it fully.

This x1,000,000 - I'm really surprised that @deniz posted something so vague and unconnected to the criticisms and concerns. The longer this continues with a lack of solid information I'm afraid the more I think that Gideros isn't going anywhere. Not going to risk it on my next project as it currently stands. It's not so much about a lack of features for my next project either, it's about going down a development dead-end any further.

ar2rsawseen

Firstly and importantly, yes you are right, will try to change that, starting from blog and newsletters

Secondly, yes I know its been hard on releases, etc, but it's not like nothing really happens and progresses.
In the last couple months we now have:
Facebook for Android,
SQLlite for Android,
Flurry for Android,
new Flurry version for IOS,
Local and Push notifications for both IOS and Android,
Heyzap integration,
GooglePlay services for achievements and Leaderboards (and almost finished multiplayer)
Couple of behind the scenes projects and experiments, which we will share soon
And not even mentioning new website, writing up new docs, and lots of behind the scene stuff, as pitches, meetings, trips, etc, everything done for progression of GiderosMobile, working far more than 8 hours a day.

Thirdly, yes things maybe are not going the way we wanted or believed they would, the R&D grant not yet received, and we are left with the team and resources that we have now, and maybe we are dedicating more resources to searching for other investment opportunities than we did before (which also slows the development process), but that is only because we are not going to let the project die, on the contrary, we want to secure the future of Gideros.

Fourthly, even if it is not the current case, stating that you would not use the tool because it is dead and will not get updated, although it mets all you current criteria of needed features is an overstatement in my opinion

Well maybe this kind of message is what you expect to receive bi-monthly?

moopf

Fourthly, even if it is not the current case, stating that you would not use the tool because it is dead and will not get updated, although it mets all you current criteria of needed features is an overstatement in my opinion

With all due respect, that's absolute rubbish. If my confidence in the long term viability of my chosen development system is in doubt (which regardless of what you say about plugins *is* in doubt currently in terms of the core which is the most important thing) then why on earth would I choose to use the system again going forwards? Changes in mobile operating systems happen often - oh look, there's iOS 7 - I may well be left in a position that I can no longer provide on-going development support for client projects because the system is dead and will not be updated. In essence, that's the reality of the position that Gideros' lack of core development is making me seriously look at now. Promises of quicker development have been going on for a year now but not happening. Honestly for what is essentially a startup, the steam has gone out of things really quickly.

I love supporting the smaller outfits, I'm one myself. I have said repeatedly that I really like Gideros, the way it's structured and the performance. But there comes a point where the worries about where it's going ramp up and I'm there now. It's over a month since we were told that the next release would be a bug fix release - but no sign of it yet. It's 3 months or so since the last bug fix release as well. That's worrying.

I'm concerned just for the one project I'm now close to finishing with Gideros - if I'm left in a position in 6 months time that I can no longer provide further development after release and an OS update kills the app, I'm right in the brown stuff. Why on earth would I put myself in that position with another project I have starting in a couple of months?

So OK, here's goes iOS7 as an example - will Gideros guarantee that by the time iOS7 goes live they will have released an update that guarantees compatibility for all features if any problems exist? I'm after a promise here. A definite. An absolute. Something that's rarely, if ever, given here. And, with due respect @ar2rsawseen, I'm after a confirmation from @atilim here who is the only one that actually is in (a) control of development and (b) able to make such a promise.

bowerandy

.

OZApps

@ar2rsawseen in this particular case, I agree on the fact that while there are plenty of plug-ins that have been created recently, but does that change the fact that there are other features that are more important than the plug-ins. Many projects that are funded might not require AD's and all of those plug-ins genre.
The second part of this that Mells and Moopf are suggesting, which holds true is that it does take time to get accustomed to a particular framework, learning the features and working out the workarounds while waiting for new features.
For example, If you need a pen, supplying large amounts of Paper would not help. On top of that while many are hobbyist developers, the serious developers that run a studio and base their decisions on Gideros as a professional tool. In that way I can see what Mells is suggesting in favour of Gideros and being worried about the fact that there is no communication where a new build was expected a while ago.

There is also the fact that iOS7 has flat UI, Windows has Metro, these are all changing and
it is equally important to cater for these new platforms which has been a long awaited by many of the community and professionally the wait is a bit expensive waiting for these features, where as other frameworks are now being offered for FREE, like Unity, C*SDK, Quick.

So while we are still holding on waiting for announcements to be assured that there is a future and the features will be available soon. I hope that the point is understood in the spirit it is being made and not otherwise.

@Atilim, it would be nice to hear from you and see a couple of releases and new platforms soon. Other things that would help is samples and detailed documentation (like additional details on Meshes and Matrix)

fxone

Guys, would you mind telling them about these problems in more balanced style - or better - keep quiet in solidarity gesture at these days, very special for Turkey's community. I understand your needs, but why you are so offensive in last days. I would think, that you are from Erdogan's team (joke) )

phongtt

@bowerandy: super extremely coool - your '.' post )
Not much to say, but I also miss the old days when seeing @atilim and @gorkem being extremely active on the forum

phongtt

Myself also don't know exactly what's happening "in the kitchen" (well, I really miss @gorkem blogs)

Technical difficulty? Financial difficulty? Recent protest? etc.?

(If it's about finance, I remember someone telling the idea of Kickstarter-ing it. It seems a good idea, but nevermind, I'm not in the position to ask to do so)

Mells

@ar2rsaween

Secondly, yes I know its been hard on releases, etc, but it's not like nothing really happens and progresses.

Well that's my point. We have no way to know what you've been working on unless we spend time on the forum, follow every discussion, try to explore the code etc...

My point was never to say that the team isn't working or committed (this is definitely far from what I think, that's why I like and want to support Gideros).
But there is a gap between what you are doing, the value you communicate, and the users' expectations.
Those 3 things should match, deliver what your users are expecting the most and make sure that everyone (inside and outside) knows about it and is able to act on it (=apply to their project in no time).
Help users to project themselves using the tool, pre sell the tool on a solid roadmap (license renewal).
And last allow adopters to spread the word, should i send my friends to forum discussions (and off topic comments) so they can learn more about Gideros?

moopf

Ah @bowerandy - shame you removed your post, that was very cool.

And @fxone - I kept quiet 10 days ago when it started in Turkey - I'd posted something, then saw what was happening, so removed it. But Atilim has been commenting on normal threads regarding Gideros recently so if that's the case why should we not say anything now? I think you confuse balance with just saying nice things. 'offensive'? No, not at all. Nothing here is offensive, well maybe apart from your wonderful joke to some people 8-|

@phongtt Is @gorkem still involved? I kind of thought he'd moved on. I've never actually been sure what his role is - does anybody know?

fxone

@moopf if you have PRO version, use your email channel, if you don't, buy it for your business claims. This place is for COMMUNITY (capish?).

moopf

@fxone I was one of the first purchasers of a license on the day they came available and I renewed earlier this year. Don't believe there was a PRO version available then - is that a new thing?

Not sure I really feel like stumping up more money now with so many questions about where Gideros is going, or if it's even going at all. That would just be a very silly move in a business sense. If things pick up here and we actually see some real solid movement, you have my word that I'll upgrade to Professional then.

As for the forums, sorry are you arbiter of what they should be used for? As a community I think a lot of people are concerned about what's going on with Gideros. Unfortunately most people just walk away, which probably explains why a number of the most frequent posters don't really post any more. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be said by those that have invested time and money with Gideros, as I have.

ar2rsawseen

Eh, it was all much more fun being on the other side, now every time I try to open my mouth, I got ar2rsoreseened (or something similar) by @moopf

You are right that I can't make such kind of promises and in overall look ios7 will bring lots and lots of problems, probably not only to Gideros.

Wow @bowerandy why we haven't heard of that before? or I missed it somewhere on the forum.

I think that not only GL2 is the reason behind the delays, but lots and lots of circumstances piled on (including me joining the team, pitches, looking for investment opportunities (which Atilim must attend), some past decisions and mistakes). And with the release of OpenGL2 we wanted to release a complete new Gideros with lots of changes (and not even in the code base or the API changes, but also team/code/license/versioning/management changes).

Well imagine if you are the only one developer that worked on the code, and then you need to share it with another one and possible couple of more, there are lots of restructures, rewritings, separations done, all to make it more managable and learnable for new developers as me.

As I said somewhere before, basically it is Gideros remade from scratch, and not only in the sense of new OpenGL2, but also in the sense, that it will be easier to add new platforms, when the code is separated as modules, plugins API would allow to wrap much more paltform specific things (and its not only in the sense of external plugins, because AlertDialog and TextInputDialog are basically same plugins, only integrated in Gideros), separating SDK compeltely from IDE (including exporting,licensing, etc) and thats all not even talking about the planning/designing and decision making process.

Thus, additionally to reduced Atilim's development time, also lots of things pile up to be done, to make things better and development faster in the future.

Yes probably we wanted to put too much new stuff in it and reorganize old stuff, but delaying it would only make things worse in future.

Basically this is just a combination of time and circumstances, decisions and mistakes, plans and vision, which formed this huge stumbling block, this obstacle, that we just need to get through and return to normal (or hopefully even better) development pace.

I know you all are frustrated and guys like @Mells, @bowerandy and @moopf raise these questions not only because of their personal concerns of personal projects, but because they care about the future of the product.

But all I can say is that we just need to do this and need to do it right (even if slow).

ar2rsawseen

Oh and about Gorkem, I don't know if he was ever involved in Gideros, more like a friend/relative who helped as much as he could. But now having his own plans, with which I wish him all the best

In a sense, I'm new Gorkem, although it seems I'm bad at my Gorkem job

moopf

Oh and about Gorkem, I don't know if he was ever involved in Gideros, more like a friend/relative who helped as much as he could. But now having his own plans, with which I wish him all the best

In a sense, I'm new Gorkem, although it seems I'm bad at my Gorkem job

For somebody that wasn't involved in Gideros, he certainly presented himself as being involved. Not quite sure what to think now.

I want to say though @ar2rsawseen that I think you've been left a little like a lamb to the slaughter since you started. By your own admission you don't know everything that's going on but you're the one having to placate people as much as possible with the details you do have, or can extrapolate, as the owners write brief messages that say nothing. And I sense you're trying to placate people by doing all these plugins. I know your heart's in the right place but I feel for you, it's not a nice position to be in. I'm not having a go at you, I'm really not, but I really want the owners to provide something official and definite to help clear up the mess of what is, or is not, going on and when. It really it time for "whens" now, not fluffly non-promises.

You are right that I can't make such kind of promises and in overall look ios7 will bring lots and lots of problems, probably not only to Gideros.

If Gideros isn't fully compatible with iOS 7 when it's released I think it will further erode confidence in the system which doesn't seem that great already for a lot of people. This can't be messed up, Gideros has paying customers that expect it to work fully.