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Build for Mac/PC Desktop

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  • Thanks, @OZApps. That's very helpful information.
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  • MellsMells Guru
    edited October 2013
    I think you need to bring in people who know a few things about marketing and monetization. That's what we need to have a clear direction of where Gideros should be headed.
    There is a lack of balance between technical and monetization skills.

    Unless I'm mistaken we are all here to (1) make and (2) sell games.

    It's a fact : we, developers, don't know anything about monetization. 95% of us don't make money from it, have no idea of what we are doing, and have no plans on learning how to do it.
    I see many suggestions here that don't make any sense. And my suggestions might not be better than any other one.
    When we say "Platform X is the way to go! It's a new market!" we don't even know what we are talking about.
    We don't know why it would make sense. And we don't know why it wouldn't make any sense at all. We just don't know. We "think", "feel". With our limited knowledge.

    And yet we follow what people like us are doing (with 95% of chances to fail, as mentioned earlier - why do we do that?).

    I see a few suggestions for future features that just look like more toys for devs to play with (to please ourselves as devs, enjoy our hobby), than tools that are part of real product dev and monetization strategies (to please customers).

    You need to bring people who have a clear understanding of where the market is going.
    You need to find them in your network (I hear there is a great pool of talented people in your area and Turkey is said to become a big player in the near future, you need to find them!), give them some incentive to join, and add them to your team so they can teach us how to build a successful business thanks to the tool you are providing us.
    Gideros is only a tool to reach the end goal.
    Look at how Unity people are doing it, they address both the technical side + provide great resources for the business side of things.
    Look at how Aweber/Buffer/Mailchimp are addressing every kind of need that surround the tool they are providing. They understand that their product contributes to a bigger end goal.

    I, as a developer, don't trust my own limited vision to provide the best suggestions on where to go. I have my thoughts and strategies, but I need resources to take informed decisions.
    And I don't think most of other devs know what they are doing and where they are going (note that I don't hesitate a second to include myself).

    So, you need to broaden the scope of people you get suggestions from.
    We (devs who don't know much) shouldn't guess what's coming next.
    You should bring people who know what's coming next.

    No more development for unproven platforms/markets please :)


    @ar2rsawseen
    and about your vote, just think, what would benefit you more as a developer
    I think you are asking the wrong question here, because you address a personal need/want. You are asking an open question to anon-targeted user (not talking about @platypus specifically, indeed) that potentially could :
    - never become a paid user (no benefit in pleasing that user)
    - maybe is doing it only for fun on sundays (no benefit in pleasing that user, because he doesn't see this as an investment he will never pay for your product -> and will raise your support costs)
    By not targeting your users, you are potentially raising your costs and lowering the value you can deliver to your real users.

    I know that it sounds rude to say "no benefit in pleasing a non paying user" but that's how you run a profitable business and that's how you can focus on providing the best value for paying users.
    Unless you run an npo, unless there is a *real* benefit (that leads to profit) in supporting non paying users, then they probably are not able to bring you the quality answers you are expecting.

    Your question you would have more quality answers if it was worded like "What have you seen working for others (in terms of sales) and you would want to see available in Gideros?"
    Then you are targeting people who are seeking for profit, those who can help you fill the gap with the competition, those who will invest in a paid license.
    twitter@TheWindApps Artful applications : The Wind Forest. #art #japan #apps
  • Ha, ha. Sorry, mate.
    By the way, have you seen anyone with a Windows Phone in your neighbourhood?
    yes i had seen couple of my friends with nokia windows phone however you may find it funny that so far i had seen only two persons with iphone and on top of that one has iphone3g android is most popular almost my all friends uses android even though they are iphone developer and mad for iphone may be due to high price of iphone

    :)

  • @Mells,

    I dont have business startup skills, i have been a Business Analyst, at a systems level, so that only counts for process development not for business direction... so this is purely my 2cents worth from my perception......relating to targeting non paying users.

    I havent subscribed or bought Gideros.....yet.
    When i was short listing the multi-platform building tools around, i liked Unity2d/3d, but i didnt like the cost. I knew that i most likely wouldnt see any profit from making apps, not at least until i had some experience. This is why i picked Gideros. I didnt mind at all that there is a splash screen at the start of my game, in fact it adds to the professional look of the app :) . But if it wasn't for the fact Gideros has that entry level trial system to play with, then i wouldnt be a customer at all. I do fully intend to upgrade to a paid member if/when i do see some profit from it. That will allow me to get access to the newest features, ie. Ad interface. Im far from poor, so i could pay the subscription now, but that would be throwing money at something that may not return anything at all.

    So having a free to use version of Gideros in the long term, "i think" is still a good idea to attract new users. Maybe like some others, start with a base freebie version, and pay "small" one off fees for plugins that you need to use. ie. Facebook, billing, etc. even have a subscription that allows you to get Gideros updates at they are released. for the free users that need to wait some period of time. So you pay based on what you need. all these small fees make up a return for Gideros as a company. while the user doesn't feel the size of the one off membership.

    Along the same line as this... I dont like buying/paying for apps in general, as there are sooo many apps that do similar that are free. BUT, i also pay out the $7.00+ dollars each time Electronic Arts bring out a Need for Speed version, or another version of Angry Birds come out. They gained the masses of people playing their games, and formed a huge following, and a small country of developers making amazing games. if they didnt start cheap, and built a huge reputation how would they grow so large.

    :)


  • MellsMells Guru
    edited October 2013
    @ArtLeeApps
    I don't disagree :) (and I agree on most points)
    My point is : each user has a cost. User acquisition has to be part of a strategy.
    Nowadays many businesses see "getting free users" as the path to get an audience and convert. My point is that it can do the opposite effect.

    To build a strategy around acquiring customers you need to know what is the average customer lifetime value, decide how much you are willing to invest to acquire a new customer, and track at all times what % of your free users you are able to convert into paid customers.
    Look at Clash of Clans : they track everything and are able to interpret those datas better than anyone else. They clearly follow a strategy, their goal is not to get the biggest number of players but to improve their conversion rates (and player's lifetime value).

    Profitable businesses focus on their conversion rates, not their number of users.
    Unless you have a plan to sell (Instragram has been running for months without being profitable but they had a plan), not controlling the gates and the number of free users is a mistake.

    Indeed, I was not arguing the benefits of offering a free version (but I maintain it's NOT a strategy that works in all cases like many people seem to think), I was saying providing a free version mainly (but not only) attracts people who will never have any intention to make a profit from using the tool.
    Most of those people come for the freebie, not for the value they can get (and *reinvest*) from using the tool.

    So my answer would be :
    So having a free to use version of Gideros in the long term, "i think" is still a good idea to attract new users.
    Most people think this is obvious, but I think if you are not able to convert those users this is a terrible strategy that can kill your business (free user has a cost for your company).

    This is why this is important to segment your free audience at several stages to identify who are the ones (like you, ArtLeeApps) who have a real interest in investing in Gideros.
    How I reframed the question for the poll ("what do you want to see in Gideros as a developer") above is one way (between thousands) to segment already.
    Segmenting is what can save/kill your business.

    It's important for Gideros team to identify people like you so they can provide you with better support, listen to you more carefully, address your (possible) concerns, keep you engaged until you pay, show you "before you even pay" how it is supporting already paying customers by showcasing their work, making them benefit from their network of partners, etc...
    and not spending time with other free users.
    So the question is : what is the ratio of free users with a real interest in becoming a paying customers?
    What is preventing them from becoming paying customers?
    How do they envision to generate revenues with mobile apps and how does Gideros fit with this strategy?

    If you are not attracting developers that can answer that last question (who at least can see the value of finding those answers) then you are not attracting the right kind of people.

    For instance, if you run a mailing list (one of the best way to convert) each subscriber has a cost. Each time you send a mail, you pay. You can see how important it is to make a difference as soon as possible between people like you, and people who just installed Gideros "to test a little bit". You don't want to pay for those people who won't read your newsletter, and probably will send it to spam.
    You want them to leave.


    Edit : Look at the top commenters on this forum on the right.
    For instance take the top 20, those people are/were highly engaged with Gideros.
    There is a ton to learn from talking to them.
    I would ask the ones who stayed "why did you stay?"
    Those who stayed, did we give them enough reasons so they all become paying customers?

    I would ask the ones that are not here anymore "We are sorry that you left! Can you tell us a few things about why you decided to leave?
    What did you need and who is providing it? We want to understand."
    Were they paid customers? How long did they stick to our product?
    Can we see a pattern "we can see a drop of interest after 18 months between users who subscribed between.... and ..... " and find out what happened?

    Ok, I'm off!

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    twitter@TheWindApps Artful applications : The Wind Forest. #art #japan #apps
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  • Ha, ha. Sorry, mate.
    By the way, have you seen anyone with a Windows Phone in your neighbourhood?
    yes i had seen couple of my friends with nokia windows phone however you may find it funny that so far i had seen only two persons with iphone and on top of that one has iphone3g android is most popular almost my all friends uses android even though they are iphone developer and mad for iphone may be due to high price of iphone
    That is the one thing that a lot of developers need to cater for, different markets have different favourite products. There used to be Orkut for Brazil and India, VKontakte for Russia and Facebook for the rest of the world. Now most have migrated over to Facebook. Similarly, iPhones are not as common in India as Androids are, I find it stranger to see people with Samsung Notes (nearly the size of iPad Mini) stuck to their ears.
    twitter: @ozapps | http://www.oz-apps.com | http://howto.oz-apps.com | http://reviewme.oz-apps.com
    Author of Learn Lua for iOS Game Development from Apress ( http://www.apress.com/9781430246626 )
    Cool Vizify Profile at https://www.vizify.com/oz-apps

  • Unless I'm mistaken we are all here to (1) make and (2) sell games.
    A little correction, Make Apps, not just games. That is the main reason for asking @Atilim for Native UI and a lot many features.

    My take on this is, with making and selling apps, it is to the mercy of the Free - $0.99 mentality and maybe AD's etc VS making an app that offers a good consulting rate and takes away from all the rest of Marketing on the App Store, etc.

    Clients are also interested in newer features and ways to integrate Mobile strategies into their businesses. I think it was @ArtLeeApps that was talking about using mobile devices for the drivers. Games are fine and fun, but the real potential of these powerful devices in our palms is not just flicking or tapping a few angry pixels around.

    Just my thoughts, I guess a couple of other users were also looking for the ability to create Apps not just games.
    twitter: @ozapps | http://www.oz-apps.com | http://howto.oz-apps.com | http://reviewme.oz-apps.com
    Author of Learn Lua for iOS Game Development from Apress ( http://www.apress.com/9781430246626 )
    Cool Vizify Profile at https://www.vizify.com/oz-apps
  • @ozapps
    I find it stranger to see people with Samsung Notes
    ------->that's nothing my one friend is using 7 inch tablet as a phone and always wear cargo or track type of pants b'coz in jeans he can not put his tablet :))


    :)
  • I agree on lots of things with @Mells, althogh have some extra comments,

    In business life everything has advantages and disadvantages. As a paid user, the only reason i bought Gideros license is to support this great product in the beginning. (Only Later i used the the advantage of a paid user like ads-interface vs vs..)

    I am thinking to my self; if everything will be professional and Gideros team or the members are not helpful, friendly, sometime amateur but ambitious etc.. "Will i be here?", "Will i share my experiences and code for free with them?", "Will i try to answer a newbie question so willingly?" . If everything will be depended on money this community will loose lots of its great values. We should have to always keep in mind that while trying to become professionals we shouldn't loose our purity, excitement or ambition. In my opinion the line to become professional and to loose those properties are so much close to each other and even some of them colliding with each other. ( So much thin line between them, while trying to succeed in one, the other thing can be lost totally )
    I already experienced this in Corona before. I lost my will to use that product only because of exceptionally high professionalism and canceled my subscription.

    I hope Gideros will not do the same mistakes on the road and while trying to becoming professional those values will be always kept.
  • OZAppsOZApps Guru
    edited October 2013

    Look at Clash of Clans : they track everything and are able to interpret those datas better than anyone else. They clearly follow a strategy, their goal is not to get the biggest number of players but to improve their conversion rates (and player's lifetime value).
    BeerSDK was tracking and still does everytime you compile and run the app, it connects to their servers with the name of your project. Unsure if people would like being tracked.

    Profitable businesses focus on their conversion rates, not their number of users.
    Unless you have a plan to sell (Instragram has been running for months without being profitable but they had a plan), not controlling the gates and the number of free users is a mistake.
    The unfortunate truth of most businesses these days is not about long terms family names and history, it is all about an exit strategy (which many do not have) but would like to sell off and that works entirely on the number of users (registrations). So for many businesses getting even free users and unused accounts is a big thing till when they start making money. A company that shall remain unnamed, makes a platform like a social network like Disney's Club Penguin, but when they pitch to potential partners, they throw numbers like 600,000 users or 100,000 additional developers every year, etc. The larger numbers help in getting further funding or potential interests, despite people knowing that these are inflated numbers.
    Indeed, I was not arguing the benefits of offering a free version (but I maintain it's NOT a strategy that works in all cases like many people seem to think), I was saying providing a free version mainly (but not only) attracts people who will never have any intention to make a profit from using the tool.
    Most of those people come for the freebie, not for the value they can get (and *reinvest*) from using the tool.
    That would be untrue, Gideros paved the way to free and now BeerSDK is also free. If someone does not want to profit they never will, given that there are so many FREE SDKs. However for a long term strategy, the framework has to fulfill a particular number of features and takes time to establish confidence, libraries and tricks/tips with the framework. The value is build over a period of time in my opinion.
    It's important for Gideros team to identify people like you so they can provide you with better support, listen to you more carefully, address your (possible) concerns, keep you engaged until you pay, show you "before you even pay" how it is supporting already paying customers by showcasing their work, making them benefit from their network of partners, etc...
    and not spending time with other free users.
    I guess many of us do not pre-order, atleast I prefer to look at the physical product before I purchase it. Gideros is gradually picking up as it is being tested, gaining confidence in the community etc. I am not sure how many would like to buy before the know what it can do. From personal experience, I picked up BeerSDK when it was in ß but the first app that I wrote was nearly a year or more later (I had picked up an Educational license, as I was an Academic at the time) I was following Gideros since quite an early time but have published Chopper Rescue (the game from my book) using Gideros just recently. There were two projects that I prototyped using Gideros but the clients requirements forced a different option. @Atilim had been in close loop on these two projects.

    So the question is : what is the ratio of free users with a real interest in becoming a paying customers?
    What is preventing them from becoming paying customers?
    How do they envision to generate revenues with mobile apps and how does Gideros fit with this strategy?
    These are the questions that need to be answered and probably as a Poll, @ar2rsawseen, you can add these questions to a poll, this can shed light on a few things.
    You want them to leave.
    That would not be such a god strategy...
    I would ask the ones who stayed "why did you stay?"
    Those who stayed, did we give them enough reasons so they all become paying customers?
    I am still here because I see the potential of Gideros and waiting for the new features to be added, and I am not exactly a new user to Gideros, on the forums, I signed up #193 which was much later than the first time I downloaded Gideros.
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  • ar2rsawseenar2rsawseen Maintainer
    edited October 2013
    @Mells actually, when I ask "what would benefit you more as a developer"
    I kind of mean, that what you see more as your potential market, where you saw others succeed. Because the opinion about some platform, should come from some experience, right?

    And as I mentioned this poll and thread discussion, is only informative for us and decision will not be made solely on this. Besides the user opinion, we also need to take into consideration other things, like:
    value of the market for our product, as in, will it provide strategic advantage over our competitors? Will investors be more interested to see us support this or that platforms, etc.
    the time and resources for implementation. Not only supporting basic platform, but also transferring all the plugins, etc.
    And further support and future of platform, will there be any drastic changes in future, which would make all the work done in vain, will platform be sold to someone, or maybe they will add something in future, that would make the transfer for us even easier later rather then now, etc.

    So its all: user opinion, potential investor opinion, market trend based on competitors, technological aspect and future risks.

    Its not like, who ever wins this poll, will be the platform we will implement :)

    So that is why we still are undecided on the major feature priorities, because there is really, really and really a lot to think about :)
  • And about other aspects (like paid user versus free, etc), I was undecided where to post it, this thread or the other one with your very interesting suggestions so posted them on the other thread :)
  • @ar2rsawseen Well I had guessed the poll didn't have such a BIG impact on decision making, it was a way to take the discussion further :)
    I believe what you are doing is good and I trust Gideros team to keep on building it until it reaches its true potential (features-wise, and profits).

    @OZApps
    A little correction, Make Apps, not just games
    Indeed! you are right. Considering the fact that I'm not building games only, that's good you brought the correction.
    Unsure if people would like being tracked.
    I think that's not the real problem. The problem is how do you collect those datas, are users aware of that, and do you use those datas to increase the value of your product for your users (players) or your customers (if paid product, users. If free, advertisers).
    Basically, if people who give you infos are aware of that and are the ones who benefit from it, then I see nothing bad with it.
    If it's an (double?) opt-in process, then great.

    It's not a "mobile era" issue. I'm happy to let my restaurant know how many times I came in the last weeks so he can target me with more advertising, discounts, and offer me a free dessert the next time I go with my family to keep me satisfied.
    The unfortunate truth of most businesses these days is not about long terms family names and history, it is all about an exit strategy
    I think this is not. This is a bias by looking at the IT industry but most businesses exist because people want to create an occupation that make them feel good about themselves and make enough money to keep on doing it. They don't it for money and they would claim that "money is not that important" if you asked them (money is taboo).
    IT is such a small part of "businesses", I would say that most businesses have never heard about that idea.
    Most businesses don't know what an exit strategy is.
    That would be untrue, Gideros paved the way to free and now BeerSDK is also free.
    I don't see much how it relates to what I said (this is not sarcasm)? If I told people "get my product for free and generate 10$" or "get my product for $200 and generate $1000" (considering this is a statement I can deliver) I would not attract the same kind of people.
    So I stand by my point that if you provide a product with a low barrier to entry, more than ever you need to segment them. As soon as possible.

    Most (not all) people go to 0 because that means "no commitment". "Nothing to loose". They are driven by a mindset of scarcity.
    Put a $1 price tag and you will see how big a difference it makes. I have seen amazing results with this strategy. The signup drop drastically, but the conversion rates are much higher.
    People who can make even the smallest commitment differentiate themselves by showing that they have a mindset of abundance. They will pay. They have the ability to project themselves.
    You want to identify and serve them first.
    I am not sure how many would like to buy before the know what it can do
    That's a misunderstanding. When you see testimonials, great case studies and an app that sells made with a framework that you are evaluating, if you already have yourself a good feeling with a product, this gives you rational reasons to take action and become a paying customer. I was not talking paying before you use (not in that case, even if I think preselling a product is still a great idea).
    (about : "you don't want people looking for freebies") That would not be such a god strategy...
    In my book, that would be a perfect strategy (to eliminate people looking for freebies, *not* people who use a product for free before they make their decision). But we can disagree and still have a beer/cofee/sake/red wine glass someday :)

    @talis
    Indeed, I agree.
    I was just saying : make more profits, reinvest so you can build a better product.
    If Gideros team makes more money so they can get more people in the team, take more rest, enjoy their lives, party and party, build a better product, so that I can build better products myself, be more profitable, enjoy more time with my family and so my own customers are happier, then there is nothing bad in talking about building more resources ;)

    I caught a cold last tuesday and I'm stuck at home.
    You'll be relieved when I'll get back to work :)
    twitter@TheWindApps Artful applications : The Wind Forest. #art #japan #apps
  • (about : "you don't want people looking for freebies") That would not be such a god strategy...
    In my book, that would be a perfect strategy (to eliminate people looking for freebies, *not* people who use a product for free before they make their decision). But we can disagree and still have a beer/cofee/sake/red wine glass someday :)
    Definitely, exchanging opinions is quite important and there can always be slightly or disparately different, but it can be done over a post on the Gideros Forums or a cuppa, mug, glass, flute, etc.
    twitter: @ozapps | http://www.oz-apps.com | http://howto.oz-apps.com | http://reviewme.oz-apps.com
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  • I've not sold an app as yet so I have no expertise in this area, but I was curious....

    If you make a gideros game for desktop, how would you make it available for purchase?
    If you make a gideros game for html5, how would you make it available for purchase?

    (Desktop game sold/delivered via steam would be my preferred way. :D If only! )
  • The way I see it is that at the moment there's a good space for a framework/tool that can deploy 2d games to win/mac/linux/iOS/Android(s)/OUYA, with a superior and faster workflow, ability to add plugins for added functionality and with the ease of use of Lua.

    This is why I think that a backend based on something proven and working (cocos2d-x?), could have been killer.

    My 2c



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  • @gianmichele

    atilim previous said "While moving to OpenGL ES 2.0, I was also thinking about dropping my 2d engine and use cocos2d-iphone or cocos2d-x. Finally, I've decided to not to use them to have more control in the future."

  • The way I see it is that at the moment there's a good space for a framework/tool that can deploy 2d games to win/mac/linux/iOS/Android(s)/OUYA, with a superior and faster workflow, ability to add plugins for added functionality and with the ease of use of Lua.

    This is why I think that a backend based on something proven and working (cocos2d-x?), could have been killer.

    My 2c
    You are correct, that am established (proven and working) framework would work best, as @Kellog pointed out, @Atilim did mention that Cocos-2d seemed like an option but was not one. SpriteKit is a good option from Apple, but Android does not have an equivalent, which will make all the difference.
    twitter: @ozapps | http://www.oz-apps.com | http://howto.oz-apps.com | http://reviewme.oz-apps.com
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    Cool Vizify Profile at https://www.vizify.com/oz-apps
  • Look, Beer SDK has announced beta support for WP8 coming 1st quarter of 2014 (and then Windows 8) :D
    http://blogs.windows.com/windows_phone/b/wpdev/archive/2013/10/29/corona-labs-announces-support-for-windows-phone-8-and-windows-store-apps.aspx

    Anyway, my vote for WP8 has been pretty close to none (like @Platypus :D), so my vote order is now: HTML5 (one "use case" for me: demo our game on the web), Desktop, WP8.
  • that's interesting, perhaps microsoft would be interested in funding win support phone/8 in gideros if they would be asked. i also imagine that gideros team could do it with 1/10th of funding compared to how beer sdk is probably doing. thus also gideros might not be as well-known yet it would sound good for win phone that 'many' mobile sdks now support win phone/8 export and on their scale this would probably be only a small investment.
  • It's been about 5 or 6 months since I started this thread.

    Don't suppose there is any clarity on Desktop Deployment yet?
  • I'd say wp8 should be one of the top priorities - especially if Corona are getting it as they are virtually direct competition for Gideros.
    Coder, video game industry veteran (since the '80s, ❤'s assembler), arrested - never convicted hacker (in the '90s), dad of five, he/him (if that even matters!).
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  • yesterday I dreamt that new version of gideros appeared with desktop support and I was so happy.
    was this a premonition?
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  • It looks like Corona might also be getting HTML5.

    Windows8 already runs html5 well, and with the new apple announcement, WebGL being included in OS8 as well as desktop OS, I think that by the end of the year, things will start really moving toward html5 based stuff.

    Also, with Node webkit you can package your HTML5 game for desktops at very good performance.

    I completely understand how hard it must be for a small team to implement new features etc. but I think HTML5 is honestly a must platform to have in order to stay competitive in the future.

    I absolutely LOVE Gideros and if I could help the team out in any way I honestly would! I don't thib=nk I would be any help with coding but feel free to PM me if you need any cartoons/gfx work for the website :)

    Gideros is by far the best tool to make games, that I have ever tested and I really want to see it do well.

    I also really hope that HTML5 is somewhere on the roadmap, as Gideros would honestly be the only tool I would ever have to use.
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